This week’s show includes:
Sage Advice – Magic items and props
Table Manners – Playing with Evil PCs
Sticklers Spotlight – The dreaded LEVEL LIMITS discussion
Creature Feature Theater – What will we encounter this time?
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ADVENTURES DARK AND DEEP™ is not a "retro-clone." It does not set out to re-create a particular set of rules from decades past, as do some other games. Rather, it is a new creation, unique unto itself, and does not attempt to recreate any set of rules that has gone before. The game and its materials are compatible with other games that are based on the original and Advanced versions of the world's most popular role-playing game.
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Yay, a new show! Awesome work guys. I’ve already listened to them all twice. It has inspired me to create my own world.
Awesome, please keep us updated in the forums with your sandbox world
Tell Jayson that I’m sorry that Orion is not my real name. Its my internet name and if I used my real name, there would be two DM Vincents.
lol…Jayson sounds a bit annoyed in this episode..
I like the way second does surpassing level limits…once the race/class combo reaches it’s level limit optionally the DM can allow the race/class combo to continue to advance but the race has to earn double or triple xp in order to advance each and every level past the level limit…this still gives humans an advantage, and allows other races to still advance!..
He makes an excellent point about the lack of spells and magic items for evil PCs. I think I may start posting those along with dome adventures written for the dastardly parties in mind.
Lol I meant some adventures not dome.
Normally I love the casts. This one just didn’t do it for me. When I saw the topic of discussion I was excited. However, it wasn’t so much a talk on what is fun and/or interesting about running a villain (or even an anti-hero campaign) which I hoped would at least be a topic for discussion… but, it turned out to be what was wrong and didn’t work about running evil characters and left me disappointed as the vibe I got was “don’t do it” as people just act stupid ala (run a CE character or CN character and cause problems for the DM).
It would have be nice to talk on how a group of non good PCs could get along in a group via goals, objectives, background history, reason for unity, etc. I agree with whoever said “this creates more work for the DM” yeah it does. But, if the players and dm have an agreement prior to the game beginning it can work out to be a really interesting campaign concept.
My group is currently doing an “anti hero” campaign ala SOA (Sons of Anarchy; outstanding TV show) and there isn’t one good aligned pc in the group. However, we are all loyal to our “guild” and by default each other.(yes even the evil players) The group also cares about what happens to the town the campaign is set it. We have reasons to help certain citizens, and business owners. The group has a vested interest in what is going on around them and what is happening to the people that could easily be construed as “doing the right thing”. It just required a little forethought and group consensus. That said, they are still playing evil to neutral PCs and get to do things you normally wouldn’t have an opportunity to do in a do-gooder campaign so in one regard it’s the best of both worlds, especially from a “role playing” perspective. It’s a lot of fun.
A missed opportunity guys
That said the discussion on the level cap for non human races was a very good debate. At the end of the day, regardless of what “in game” reason you can come up with (or balance issue) if the player isn’t having fun, then you should ignore the rule. I think there is a difference between the 10th level elven mage vs. his three 15th level human companion players. Just ask him. ; ) but that is something that is also subjective and only the dm and his player would know. In any event, great discussion.
Well, we can’t win them all. Thank you for the honest feedback and the nice comments.
I am only part way through the Podcast, just starting on the Creature Feature, but I had to make a comment about level limits. I played 1E for many years, with many DMs and I cannot recall a single game which enforced level limits.
From a verisimilitude perspective, limiting a 200 year old elf to a lower level than a 30 year old human simply makes no sense. The arguments presented to enforce level limits were, in my opinion weak: remember that EGG even wrote that the rules as presented were only guidelines; worrying about “breaking” 1E is hilarious, as it is the most broken of all editions, that’s why we had/have so many house rules; the analogies of athletes and scientists and musicians left a bad taste in my mouth because while I agree 100% that not every individual can attain the ultimate heights of achievement, saying that an entire race is incapable, sounds very wrong to my ear, even in a D&D world.
I vaguely recall that in many campaigns in which I played in the 80′s, the method used to make human a palatable option as a PC was XP. I can’t remember if humans automatically received the bonus even if they did not have the high stat, or if demi-humans received a corresponding penalty. Either way it worked well, it kept humans ahead, but everyone kept moving forward.
I am currently trying to get my gaming group to try 1E (most have played only 3E, and a couple have played 2E) and I plan on adding some 3E ideas as well as some old 1E house rules: no level limits (you knew that was coming), magic-users get bonus spells for high INT similar to clerics, but only for level 1 and 2 spells, big reduction in detect/divination spells, no world shattering spells (not that they will get to that level), increase a stat every 4 levels (thinking about making this cost XP).
Anyway, just my 2 copper pieces.
By the way, I still think you have one of the best gaming podcasts out there, and I eagerly wait for every issue. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Greymist. I never agreed with level limits, and I always gave humans and extra push in my games to make them more desired for players… Great feedback!
The two ccg’s of world war 2 are Echelons of Fury by Medallion simulations and History of War.
Now I know a lot of people are gonna have their own opinion on level limits for the demi-humans but personally I’ve never really found that rule to be beneficial for the game environment in any way shape or form.
I think the real reason that they limited the levels is because the game assumes that if you play a demi-human then your going to multi-class. Honestly ask yourself this question… Why would an elf only play as just a mage considering that it can live to be over 1000 years old? Do you really think thats the only thing they’re gonna do? Obviously no, not that multi-classing really makes the pc’s all that much more powerful, it really didn’t because of all the limitations of it that were already present. That alone was enough.
Dual-Classing was also a ridiculous idea that had even less logic behind it then what was done for demi-humans. I mean really? Your pc is just out of nowhere is going to totally forget it’s older class until you have gained one level beyond that of your orginal class?… No just no.
D&D Basic has been the only edition that actually did this particular part of the game right. The demi-humans ARE the classes because the full range of their abilities really did give them a specific level of power that need to be treated differently. For instance a level 20 Elf really is the equivalent of a level 30 human of whatever class simply because of what they could do naturally. It’s just a huge difference between what the demi-humans are capable off in Basic then what they can do in AD&D 1st edition. Simply put… the demi-humans got totally over nerfed with basically no real reason to do so, or rather no strong reason to do so.
I mean every DM is going to handle this differently but if you really think that there is a true solid reason to stick to the core AD&D 1st ed rulings on level limits… uhh there really isn’t. It’s really being done as a bad attempt for game balance.
I’ve been thinking about the level limits issue since then, and it actually makes sense to me now.
Demi-humans may live longer in some cases, but they’re just not mentally or physically capable of operating at levels above their limit.
It’s not so different from a magic user being unable to cast ninth-level spells if his intelligence isn’t high enough.
So obviously we agree to disagree on that then. Anyone else want to give some imput on how they feel about demi-human level limits?
I find the level limits inexplicable. Elves are if anything MORE magically inclined than humans; and I do not believe one can break with the literary roots of the genre to justify badly conceived rules. AD&D was not a balanced game, and it requires some tweaks to work, in particular at high levels.
A good DM can make the worldly advantages of being human compensation enough, or give them some other boost. Of course the world could favor demi-humans. There is nothing wrong with a campaign milieu in which humans are an embattled minority, viewed somewhat above orcs and goblinoids but well beneath the longer-lived, ancient races.
My favourite AD&D character was chaotic neutral, his first companion was a chaotic good elf who eventually went mad and blew up a ship full of sailors becoming chaotic evil in the process. I agree that evil characters and good characters can’t get along for long. Having an evil character as a companion when you are generally good is like having a psychopathic friend who you have a lot of fun hanging out with for a while until one day you realize that he has been monopolizing your time, stealing your money, abusing you and your friends and convincing you to do evil acts.
I like keeping Gary Gygax’s generally Human world with elves etc. hiding in the woods, mountains, hill and sometimes met in the towns. It gives demi-humans a bit of the feel of their mythical origins as creatures of the realm of faerie. If every player is non-human that feeling disappears. On the other hand some limits almost prohibit class choices, such as the Halfling cleric/fighter who maxes out at 4th level, or the Half-Elf figter/Cleric who maxes out 6th. If a player in my campaign is brave enough to take one of these class combinations knowing what their level limits are i will probably work out something with them to allow them to continue. Maybe requiring specific quests to find legendary heroes of their race who can teach them the secrets of those legendary powers.